[kickaha]

Hi folks,

I am still ironing out a few issues on the agenda, but here is the speaker list for all who have been asking.

Note: Keith Kochberg will be presenting WhenU's position. Elisabeth Archambault and Shawn Collins will be summarizing both smaller grass root affiliate and merchant positions.

Initially I had asked BuyersPort to only submit an opinion paper, but after talking with others at CJU and with BuyersPort I feel it is important they also present. All the client-side-applications tend to behave in a different fashion so it is not possible to characterize one company to sum up the view of these applications.

I feel the meeting has a very good and balanced mix of presenters from many different aspects and views inside the industry. Networks will have the opportunity to ask presenters clarification questions during their presentation. In addition I will be proving another Q&A period after the lunch break.


Presenter List

Elisabeth Archambault, BuckWorks.com
Keith Kochberg, Imarketingltd.com
Paul Nichols, Ebates.com
Farhad Mohit, BizRate.com
Shawn Collins, ClubMom.com
Joe Hatch, Buyersport.com
Tim Storm, FatWallet.com

Ad Network Attendance List

Steve Pike, BeFree.com
(Unnamed Delegate), BeFree.com
Stephen Messer, Linkshare.com
Liz Larie, Linkshare.com
Abe Hsuan, Linkshare.com
Todd Crawford, CJ.com
Jeff Pullen, CJ.com
Chris Henger, Performics.com
Stuart Larkins, Performics.com


I am also finalizing the observer list which has been built up on a first-come and first-serve basis. If you wish to attend you can drop me a line to be on the waiting list.



regards to all,
Wayne

Wayne Porter
V.P. Product Development
AffTrack LLC.
http://www.afftrack.com
http://www.revtrends.com
Advanced & Automated Data Analysis for Performance Marketers.

[Haiko de Poel, Jr.]

No merchant representation! /infopop/emoticons/icon_eek.gif

I am really glad that Wurld is represented also, TY!http://abw.infopop.cc/newicons/icon20.gif

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>I will be proving another Q&A period after the lunch break.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Even from the peanut gallery? /infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

(Wayne ... your doing a great job!)

<font size="2" face="Verdana">Haiko


The secret of success is constancy of purpose. ~ Disraeli</font></p>

[cusimano]

Wayne,

Thanks for posting this update. Your efforts in organizing this meeting are appreciated by many.

You may have already posted this elsewhere or in the past, but would you please also post a summary of the intended objectives of this meeting.

It is great to have this meeting and I'm sure all would like to see a positive result. However, if each party just gets up and a delivers a speech or presents a position paper on their side's views, come November 8th, all parties will likely be no further ahead substantively on the business issues (I'm sure that's not the intended outcome). Is this meeting intended to be just a preliminary meeting for the parties to sit down face to face to hear each other out with the intention that it will lead to a subsequent meeting or is it your intention that more substantive results (ie. a preliminary agreement in principle) will be reached on November 7th?

Also, any thought of inviting some of the big merchants such as Amazon to the table?

Yours truly,
Cusimano.Com Corporation
per: David Cusimano

[happypoon]

Well you're making progress and thats great.

I am surprised there is no merchant representation as well. You've expanded the format to allow for other parasites but haven't made any accomodation for merchants. I guess your opinion is the same as it's been along - If the affiliate or the merchant doesn't like them then drop them or simply don't sign up.

While I understand your opinion in this, you have to understand that it's not always that easy. Merchants will have to monitor their programs like a hawk which will become a task they shouldn't have to perform and the parasites have a sneaky and less than ideal history of being open with their intentions and the tactics they've employed to get their programs and on unsuspecting users machines.

This means that I can do my due diligence and the merchant can too but we still end up getting the shaft when they slip in and they have a history of doing that. With this said, I think it's only fair that merchants be represented in this issue as well (given the scope creep that has entered with parasites).

I certainly do not want to read a newspaper article after this meeting and have it blantently omitted with any representation from a single merchant. That would be a terrible disaster and is certainly not appropriate for this meeting.

If their are any merchants out their who would like their opinions represented as well I urge you to make a stand now and request your stance be formally voiced with the networks, the parasites and the affiliates. Adoption of any standards without merchant involvement and buyoff will be just another joke to laugh at.

[elbowcreek]

My concern is that the parties involved will drag their feet through the entire Xmas season.

I would like to make sure that substantive issues get resolved immediately, with additional meetings later for the purpose of tidying up.

What I do not want to see, and what will not be acceptable, will be a generic, let's go home and think about this til January approach.

If any of these companies are *still* overwriting affiliate links - I believe there has been talk about ebates doing this - then that issue needs to be addressed immediately, before the meeting even occurs, and it certainly cannot wait until January.

I Will FOCUS On My Goal

[kickaha]

Haiko,

Thanks for your support.

There are only so many hours in a meeting! Shawn is getting opinion papers from merchants I am sure. They can surely submit them. Rest assured that merchant views will be discussed in some fashion. Most of the networks have been gathering opinions or have had them offered by their merchants in the last two weeks. Right now the focus is on affiliates and client-side applications in terms of the meeting. We have to start somewhere and those issues are complex enough to grapple with.

David,

The objective of the meeting is to hear dialogue from an array of parties and to promote dialogue between the network executives face-to-face. Rather then have it to degrade into mud-slinging on the message boards we are looking for a professional format in which to hear views, opinions and technical discussion.

If I had my wishes I would have had months to plan this out and we would have had a multi-day summit followed by a brisk networking party. /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

As it stands we had only a few weeks, limited resources and time and much pressure to get something underway. So we have what we have now and it is a start. Everyone is in agreement that the networks must talk, they have all agreed and we have a good set of delegates to kick off discussions. This is the best we can ask for at the moment.

I am sure everyone would like to see the networks walk out of the meeting with a definitive stance on client-side applications. Personally, and this is just my personal view, I don't think that is realistic. I have worked with all of them in the past and getting them all to agree and enforce something has me skeptical. But who knows...it could happen so let's give everyone a fair chance.

I feel that getting the solution providers to come up with a code of conduct is achievable, but the problematic issue of enforcement will be the real obstacle. Enforcement calls for contractual changes, governing bodies, etc. This is far more complex then a set of standards. That being said I think a set of standards is an important first step, but eventually the issue of enforcement will have to come into play.

For the moment getting them to sit down and get close to or come to a consensus on how to deal with the issues is the primary goal.


I feel the networks will listen diligently, have their own talks, and then sythesize this information internally and go back and have their own discussions before they come out with their public stance. I DO feel they are taking the issue seriously.

We have an agenda, we have speakers, and we have concerned parties. Let's be a bit more patient and see what happens.

best,
Wayne

Wayne Porter
V.P. Product Development
AffTrack LLC.
http://www.afftrack.com
http://www.revtrends.com
Advanced & Automated Data Analysis for Performance Marketers.

[Gordon]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> Most of the networks have been gathering opinions or have had them offered by their merchants in the last two weeks <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> have they asked the parasite free or anti parasite merchants for their opinions on this?

Travel safe
Gordon
YouTrek (http://youtrek.com)

[kickaha]

Gordon,

I think they are gathering opinions from all merchants and not putting them into labeled bins.

-wayne

Wayne Porter
V.P. Product Development
AffTrack LLC.
http://www.afftrack.com
http://www.revtrends.com
Advanced & Automated Data Analysis for Performance Marketers.

[elbowcreek]

Wayne's quote:
The objective of the meeting is to hear dialogue from an array of parties and to promote dialogue between the network executives face-to-face.
- - - - - - - - -- - - -


I thought the objective of the meeting was to stop the parasites from stealing our commissions before the Xmas season commenced?

Not to be rude here, but what I am trying to suggest is that time is of the essence.

There needs to be several substantive decisions made immediately regarding ethics, morality and their role in network policy.

It's not, exactly, something that a decent human being needs to agonize over: What I hope to come from this meeting is a sense of urgency, that affiliates are unhappy with the prospect of changes not occurring before the Xmas season begins in earnest.

I Will FOCUS On My Goal

[ecomcity]

Happypoon said: "If there are any merchants out there who would like their opinions represented as well I urge you to make a stand now and request your stance be formally voiced with the networks, the parasites and the affiliates. Adoption of any standards without merchant involvement and buyoff will be just another joke to laugh at."

...so true! Shawn from Overstock was the one to recommend Wayne as meeting facilitator ..good choice. Even though we have many anti-parasite merchants here at ABW, there are only 2 merchant AM's who hold power to get the networks to take some action on behalf of the others. These 2 write more checks to a greater number of affiliates than any other merchants at the networks. Overstock (LS) and TigerDirect at BeFree.

Without a position paper from them, on their differing viewpoints, the merchants will not be represented. The parasites only fear, and are forced to respect, the merchants whom they feed off of from both the affiliate link hijacking and all other URL means to the merchant sites. They even devise ways to feed off of the merchants after the shoppers get to any merchant site.

The common point of OverStock and TigerDirect is they do value normal affiliate pre-sell activities to target shoppers. The BHO parasites and the networks have both purposely not notified the merchant pool that all parasitic activity scews their sales stats in favor of the Duperaffiliates and pureplay parasites using S/W diversion tactics.

If the meeting is designed to be a fair discussion of the merits of both normal affiliates and those using "Affiliate Applications" then some spokesperson has to address what happens to actual sales figures if the parasites aren't allowed to feed off either affiliates links or any SE listings -e-mail links -bookmarks or browser address bar typing of URLs. Seems like then the real value add of Dupers and parasites comes into play.

I feel strongly the merchant side would not allow the parasites to set the rules of engagement unless they had to originate clicks from their own domains to get to commissions. This is the only honest and ethical solution. One the power players do not want voiced at this meeting as it shows all parties that the normal affiliate targeting clicks and resulting sales has been severly curtailed by the point of sale interlopers. Merchants as a whole see 80% of all the sales commissions going to a select group they have been lead to believe played by the rules.

If everything is honestly put out on the table the reality of BHO appliactions and Duper "incent" affiliates will come to light. On their own pre-sell efforts and traffic gathering exercises to generate domain clicks they wouldn't amount to a hill of beans in the grand scheme of things. They just shuffled someone elses sales into their column to gain the valued partner status.

My policy solution, and one Wayne needs to digest and comment on is spelled out ( thanks Leader) at... http://abw.infopop.cc/6/ubb.x?q=Y&a=tpc&s=548608979&f=179600589&m=5616016941&p=1

WebMaster Mike

[heisje]

the forthcoming Nov 7 meeting is an achievement by itself - except that it elevates criminal activity (theft) to legitimate status.

by inviting the thieves to the table and awarding them "business partner" status reality is grossly distorted.

on the other hand the merchants, a group that is robbed by the thieves in a similar way that affiliates are robbed - and the only group that has the real clout to demand and get the required banning of the thieves, is not invited.

the fears of those that see no meaningful results coming out of this opportunity soon shall prove to be founded. and an opportunity lost for the lack of realism.

dealing with thieves like if they are legitimate business partners is beyond my comprehension - extinction is all they deserve.

pity that we have lost sight of basics and of all common sense.

[This message was edited by heisje on October 25, 2002 at 03:24 PM.]

[perfectG]

heisje
I agree except I think that the forthcoming meeting will backfire big time and the thieves will be put even more on a pedestal by the networks spelling doom and gloom for the small affiliates who rely soley on networks to achieve income.

Only by unitedly dropping merchant with parasitic relationships and/or continuing our efforts to inform merchants of the injustice done to themselves as much as to the affiliate community, will we get progress. CJ has made its statement by awarding eBates (the worst parasite at the moment) by giving them a award for best affiliate, honesty and integrity blah blah blah...

CJ have no intention of giving anything at this meeting. I bet they will take more.

Andy Williams

Keyword DARTs - New search engine optimization software
http://www.affiliate-masters.co.uk/keyword-darts/keyword-search-engine-optimization.htm

[elbowcreek]

I would hope that the networks understand, this is their only chance. If they do not take immediate steps to level the playing field, this whole issue is going to be.....elevated to a level they cannot begin to imagine. They will look back at September and October with fondness and remembrance. It's not going to go away until they protect affiliates from predators.

I Will FOCUS On My Goal

[heisje]

two wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for dinner . . . .

[kickaha]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> My policy solution, and one Wayne needs to digest and comment on is spelled out ( thanks Leader) at... http://abw.infopop.cc/6/ubb.x?q=Y&a=tpc&s=548608979&f=179600589&m=5616016941&p=1 <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

In time Mike. In Time. i am just enjoying myself at the moment. /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

-w

Wayne Porter
V.P. Product Development
AffTrack LLC.
http://www.afftrack.com
http://www.revtrends.com
Advanced & Automated Data Analysis for Performance Marketers.

[heisje]

I would encourage everybody to go back and refer to Mike's past post, as a wise policy draft.

in a forum like this even posts that should act as reference are easy to be forgotten. this one is worth re-visiting. please do.

http://abw.infopop.cc/6/ubb.x?q=Y&a=tpc&s=548608979&f=179600589&m=5616016941&p=1

[heisje]

while this may not be the time and suitable gathering to invite representatives of the press and the regulatory authorities, we should not be unaware that these two parties may prove, eventually, the only ones that may affect profoundly the situation.

the networks would be *very* wrong to perceive this matter as a "family" matter. the predator matter, on which they have capitalised and profited financially under *full* awareness of the technical and financial details and implications, is by now affecting a broad section of the business and consumer community (indeed millions) - and they are very deep in this.

the press and the regulatory authorities will, no doubt, have a great interest in these developments.

[Susan19]

Hi All, Haiko, I just received a notice in the mail for funds to be collected. You are right, if there are that many members as you stated, ond dollar each would be a big help. How much is needed or is it any amount will do at this point. I dont have much money, but I come here for advice and would be glad to help..Let me know, please.Thanks, Susan

[Haiko de Poel, Jr.]

Hi Susan,

Elisabeth estimated needing $2,500, I'm not sure how much she has accumulated thus far but I'm sure we can cover it. A link to her site www.buckworks.com (http://www.buckworks.com) would be great if funds are low. Thanks for your caring and support.

<font size="2" face="Verdana">Haiko


The secret of success is constancy of purpose. ~ Disraeli</font></p>

[Leader]

Thanks for the info, Haiko!

But I need to add that Elisabeth would like the links to aim at http://buckworks.com -with no www, please.

There is no knowledge that is not power.~~Ralph Waldo Emerson