[kickaha]

Mike,

"Before the Web Ink has dried on ethical logic up comes someone with a clouded adjenda. Wayne your sudden appearence here only has awaken our resolve to fight against the obvious injuctice of any technology or competitor interferring with OUR VISITOR"

No clouded agenda Mike... I am simply playing the devil's advocate and trying to logically look at all sides of the issues.

I am glad your resolve is steeled. This issue is not an easy one and affiliates will need to galvanize their message if they want to be heard and taken seriously.

best,
Wayne

Wayne Porter
V.P. Product Development
AffTrack LLC.
http://www.afftrack.com
http://www.revtrends.com
Advanced & Automated Data Analysis for Performance Marketers.

[bigchuck]

While we are beating up on Tim and his tool bar...

I have a site that is coupon/bargain/discount themed. I attempted to exchange linkswith you a while back, and got snubbed. I hope your toll bar crashes, and mistakenly sends people to my site - har-har!

Seriously, how much traffic does the tool bar send you, Tim?

Big Chuck

[CelticOneDesign]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Big Chuck:
While we are beating up on Tim and his tool bar...


Seriously, how much traffic does the tool bar send you, Tim?

Big Chuck<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I just hope he didn't spend too much money on it. I saw an ad at rentacoder to do the exact same thing and the final bid ended up at $400 (or so). Be amazed at what third world programmers will charge.

[FatWallet]

Once again, it appears as though the rabid conspiracy theorists here have failed to understand what exactly is happening.

1) The FatWallet Toolbar is installed by the user and takes residence in the Toolbar area of the web browser.
2) The FatWallet Toolbar does not do show a "deals button" until the browser session shows up on a merchants site that we have a relationship with. This means that unless we have a formal relationship with a you, we do nothing but offer our search function in the users toolbar. (This means that we don't add any buttons to the toolbar or flash/spin anything when the user is on your site).
3) As I said before, The toolbar is in public beta, and currently is used by less than 100 users. The whole purpose of the beta is to test the technology. We've made the concious decision NOT to move forward with promoting our toolbar until a final "standard" can be reached with regards to what is/is not allowed with client side applications. Currently, we believe our toolbar to be well within the contracts specified by the merchants.
4) I too am disgusted by client side applications that swipe/steal links automatically. I believe that we will see legal action brought upon those companies that have chosen to do so.
5) I do not expect to see merchants and/or networks set a policy that will ban client side notification systems - link redirection, Yes, but notification systems - probably not.

If anyone has a right to complain about parasiteware, it is yours truly. As one of the top 5000 sites on the web (according to Alexa) we have more exposure to the problem than most of the people here.

I understand that I'm not going to convince everyone here that we're doing it the right way, and by the current set of rules. If a merchant does not want to participate with our deals button on the toolbar, that is their option - we can continue to promote them through our website.

[FatWallet]

(clicked send a bit too quick)

If there is any standard that the networks choose to put forth with regards to "shutting down" client side applications when the traffic is generated by another affiliate, we will certainly update our code as quickly as possible.

Contrary to what some folks might think, we are not logging where users surf, the toolbar downloads a database of sites that we have a relationship with, and the toolbar simply watches for a match, (the database updates every 24 hours or so) - if there is a match, only then does the toolbar contact our servers to see if there are any special features for that merchant.

[ShawnSchwegman]

I'm smiling because someone else on this board is getting more heat than me right now... I feel your pain FatWallet... I feel your pain...

Shawn Schwegman
Overstock.com
801-947-3119
shawn@overstock.com

[Edwin]

So in other words, the simplistic way your application works GUARANTEES that your toolbar will react on a partner merchant site, even if the visitor to that site came via an affiliate link.

Well, what do you know... you're part of the problem.

Until you posted the final follow-up I wasn't sure, but now that you've explained how the bar works it's clear that it's parasitic vis-a-vis affiliate traffic.

[Edwin]

Of course, since you have specifically opt-in relationships with certain merchants, presumably you COULD code the application in such a way that it presented discounts/coupons (to help boost merchant conversion rates) without squashing affiliate cookies, and you were paid by the merchants outside the confines of their affiliate program.

At that point, it goes from being a parasite to being a positive virtue!

[FatWallet]

Once again, our toolbar does not touch cookies - it doesn't read them, it doesn't do anything with them.

The only way we get commission is if a user follows a link from OUR website.

Does the toolbar present an opportunity for the consumer that knowingly wanted the toolbar to visit our website, YES.

Once again, I would LOVE IT if the merchants would outright make a ban on client side notification tools, I just don't expect it to happen.

For those of you going to cju, don't be afraid to strike up a conversation - I've been to affiliate force 2001,2002, Multiple Linkshare symposiums, BeFree's event last week - Yet I've not seen any of you there trying to make a real impact. What gives?

[kickaha]

"Does the toolbar present an opportunity for the consumer that knowingly wanted the toolbar to visit our website, YES."

Amazon's Alexa toolbar offers users the ability to visit other websites as well as a button to amazon.com.

I'll see you at CJU Tim.

-wayne

Wayne Porter
V.P. Product Development
AffTrack LLC.
http://www.afftrack.com
http://www.revtrends.com
Advanced & Automated Data Analysis for Performance Marketers.

[Edwin]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by FatWallet:
Once again, our toolbar does not touch cookies - it doesn't read them, it doesn't do anything with them.

The only way we get commission is if a user follows a link from OUR website.

Does the toolbar present an opportunity for the consumer that knowingly wanted the toolbar to visit our website, YES.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

What I'm saying is why not change the toolbar behaviour so that instead of going to YOUR site it activates a special code or deposits visitors on a special page on the merchant's site where they get additional benefits but WITHOUT LOSING THE TRACKING for the original affiliate that brought them to the merchant?

That turns a thoroughly middle-of-the-grey-area tool into a very positive force, with merchants able to boost conversion rates and affiliates eager to have your tool distributed as widely as possible since higher conversion rates = higher commissions for them.

If your counter-argument is going to be "Well, merchants won't want to pay 2 lots of commissions" then it means that the merchants, through the intermediary of your toolbar, are KNOWINGLY trying to take away a certain portion of rightful affiliates' earnings.

Re. CJU, it's the wrong side of the planet otherwise I'd be there /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

[flamingoworld]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>
For those of you going to cju, don't be afraid to strike up a conversation - I've been to affiliate force 2001,2002, Multiple Linkshare symposiums, BeFree's event last week - Yet I've not seen any of you there trying to make a real impact. What gives?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Umm Tim, Not all of us have a staff doing all our work for us - some of us aren't free to travel all the time as we have to work. A lot of affiliates do not have big companies but are simply one person trying to make a living. We can't just up and leave on a whim. While I would love to go to more of those industry meetings I simply do not always have the time. I am too busy promoting my site, doing updates, raising a family etc.
Not all of us site owners have the time to schmooze with the "big guys", we actually have to work hard making our sites profitable to make up for the parasites out there stealing our commissions.

Connie Berg
www.flamingoworld.com (http://www.flamingoworld.com)

[FatWallet]

Connie, I've seen you at the events - That is how we got to know each other. Quite obviously I didn't mean you. I believe we've been in the same place at the same time three times - AF 2001, linkshare chicago 2000, linkshare new york 2002.

Yes, I do have a staff, A team I'm quite proud of - One of the best moves we've made as a company. Rather than being greedy with the success, It has been much better to be giving and take less for myself.

I understand that other activities get in the way - I also understand it can be quite expensive (cj is actually the most expensive event at $495 plus flight and room - I figure about $1500 when it is all said and done- I couldn't have done it when I first started. My point is that for people who claim affiliate marketing to be their profession, why are they not investing in the relationships to grow the business? The affiliate events are coast to coast.... new york, chicago, california, florida.... I'm just saying I don't understand why supposed professionals that are so vocal don't take the opportunity to get face to face with the merchants and networks.

The difference between whining on a forum and going to one of these events is like pissing in the wind vs. pissing in the punch.

[Cedric]

>>My point is that for people who claim affiliate marketing to be their profession, why are they not investing in the relationships to grow the business?<<

Wayne, the eighties are past (not to mention the nineties), and with them the days of face-to-face contact being requisite for even large businesses are past.

I come from senior management of Corporate America and I had extensive business relationships with people I never met face-to-face. Hell, I had people that reported to me that I never met face-to-face.

And it never hurt us.

You're living in another decade if you think conferences and "networking events" are the be-all-end-all in developing a business.

>>I don't understand why supposed professionals that are so vocal don't take the opportunity to get face to face with the merchants and networks.<<

In addition to the above? Some of us would rather chew off our own arms than go to such an event. Been there, done that, got the free t-shirt.

Avoiding conferences isn't holding me back -- it's part of what makes my "job" such a delight.

-------
Dawn is nature's way of telling you to go to bed.

[FatWallet]

To each their own - I haven't been to an event yet that didn't pay off almost immediately.

[kickaha]

"Wayne, the eighties are past (not to mention the nineties), and with them the days of face-to-face contact being requisite for even large businesses are past."

Hey now that was Tim...

I have been telecommuting for 5 years. I prefer it that way. I do agree it is good to go out and attend industry events if you are able to make it. You meet a lot of interesting people and can finally put faces to posts. (Which isn't always the greatest thing...)

best,
Wayne

Wayne Porter
V.P. Product Development
AffTrack LLC.
http://www.afftrack.com
http://www.revtrends.com
Advanced & Automated Data Analysis for Performance Marketers.

[Cedric]

My apologies for the misidentification, Wayne. /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

-------
Dawn is nature's way of telling you to go to bed.

[FatWallet]

fyi - The notification functionalities of the FatWallet Toolbar have been voluntarily suspended until a standard can be set, or it is very clear that no standard will be set. We will evaluate the issue again at that time.

[NewMexTex]

Bucks said, "... wait for him/her to visit sites that link to certain merchants, contain certain words or phrases, or some such trigger. They then present their own message to the user, keyed to someone else's content "

Wayne said, "Now this is a much better argument then what I am hearing. You are saying that the very analysis of your intellectual property and subsequent action from a 3rd party is a violation of your intellectual property- or that is the gist?

"However people readily accept the notion of using adjuncts to their browser experience. For example, I don't hear anyone defending the interests of publishers who lose revenue when users use pop-up blockers.

"Isn't this theft of intellectual property since these sites are not being able to derive potential revenue from pop-ups on their own domain???"

In the first instance, an action is initiated by a trigger on the publisher's site, by a third party, without the publisher's permission. In the second instance, the action is initiated by the publisher, and the user chooses not to accept it.

The difference is a matter of property rights. The domain, the site, is the property of the publisher. The browser is the transportation that gets the user there. The browser belongs to the user. The site belongs to the publisher. The third person doesn't belong anywhere in between. While passive browser enhancements are perfectly ethical, the triggers are not. It's very simple.

Boise Matthews

[buckworks]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> The notification functionalities of the FatWallet Toolbar have been voluntarily suspended until ... <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I didn't see this till now or I'd have commented sooner - I consider this action to be far more ethical than what some of the "other folks" are doing.

I grumbled enough earlier in this thread it behooves me to say that!

Elisabeth Archambault

[josephmonuit]

I can honestly say I had no idea this thread would cause such a discussion. I am grateful that it did, and hope that it will continue. I personally don't have much to add, I'm not much of an expert, but, I knew of something that I thought some (and I personally) might consider parasitic, and I hoped to bring it to your attention and start an open debate about it. At the time I posted it, I didn't even realize that Tim was a member of ABW. (Welcome, Tim.) I find it ironic that mikey even came out of hiding on this thread -- wow.

I still stand by my statement that if your voluntarily user installed toolbar flashes, or in any way alerts the user, when said user visits a merchant's site via my link, therefore diverting said user to your site during the transaction that it is parasitic.

Wayne, I'd ask you to please spend some time familiarizing yourself with the UBB software as there is a way to quote previous posts. Reading your posts is a chore. Very hard to tell when you're speaking vs. quoting. It requires at least more effort than I'm willing to expend on your posts. 30 seconds of your time spent is a lot easier than everyone else trying to decipher what you wrote. Feel free to private message me if you need assistance using the software -- though I'm sure the manual would be a better use of your time.